I think posting pics with a few words that its a delicate matter and very much dependant on your bond with the mother is a good compromise and keeps all schools of thought happy.  

I have to say Catherine that your methods are intriguing as I have never come across anyone else handling their babies so young, and you too of course John. I'm a firm believer that if it works go with it, I sometimes don't always follow convention with my Hamsters and its raised a few eyebrows over the years.

I hope I haven't taken this thread too off topic, they are lovely baby pics    

Quoted from Spacemonkey

I hope I haven't taken this thread too off topic, they are lovely baby pics    

Not at all, it's good to have a bit of a debate. It's not so much fun if everyone agrees all the time  

They eat dead babies because in the wild, the dead bodies would be sniffed out by predators, so eating them is instinct from the wild. The babies are lovely and feel so nice.

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but will be more gray than brown in color. Does that match what you are seeing?

I think they will turn out like flufferella, heres a pic to see what you think...

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Do mom hamster even feel sadness if and when their baby/s die?

Yes they feel sad. Both parents feel the loss. They know they have "failed" as parents. It is not their fault, but they still feel it.
They eat the dead babies so they do not start to smell and attract preditors. Sometimes there are some surviving babies and they must be protected. Sometimes the female is pregnant again and must think of her new litter.
Would there be a lot of blood? No! The baby is already dead and the heart is not beating so the blood does not flow. The lack of blood alone should tell us that the baby was dead when it was eaten.

I don't want to give details and it was not one of my animals, but years ago I dealt with a female cat that killed and ate her young. There was blood spatter right up the walls. Those babies were alive and their hearts were beating when she turned on them.(It is hard to know why she did it)

It is time Dwarf Hamsters stopped getting such bad publicity.

Remember: Everybody knew the earth was flat. And then some lunitic decided to sail off the edge with a group of three ships, the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria. No wait he didn't sail off the edge, it turned out that there was a whole lot of land there and now I live on that land. Always question "everybody Knows" statements. If they are true then you will know it for yourself, but if they are not true then why should you be guided by them.

Aw, touching, ha ok thanks alot Catherine

Hi, I have been lurking here for a while and I just wanted to add a few things here, I hope you dont mind.

You have some pretty looking dwarfs there, I used to breed Winter Whites they were my favourite species between them and the Campbell's.

There's one thing I thought I need to bring to your attention, is that I think what you have there are proven Hybrids, it look like the lighter coloured hamsters are what's called Manderin or Pudding coloured hamsters. It all depend on what you view is of breeding Hybrids, personally I think that you shouldnt breed them at all, and its also the view of the National Hamster Council they they should not be bred. They have been banned from the show table, and members have been warned about breeding them. Unfortunately, because of the nearness as to where they wild, people are rationalising for their own benefit, that they probably did meet in the wild, and probably bred too, no evidence of that has been ever been found so far, so we cannot be 100% sure that it would even happen. The biggest problem with breeding Hybrids is that that we are loosing the pure strains of both species, which regardless of how you view it, we are causing their extinction. Which for me is a serious problem. For all I know, we might already have done that, and if that's the case its really sad. The other thing is, in breeding both species, you are combining both diseases and illnesses of both the species. Which means that the hybrids have a higher of getting one or more of the illnesses both species suffer from, so in effect you are possible shortening their lifespan, because of it.

Now, depending on how you view natural selection, and evolution, that is what happens in the wild, here in captivity, it isnt natural selection, its forced selection. We play god, doesnt matter how you look at it, the hamster doesnt have a 100% choice, it lives with the hamsters we choose to add to their space. In effect when you think about it if you are breeding hybrids its its going against everything that the animal welfare groups that are trying to keep species alive that are almost extinct, you dont find them thinking, oh, we have two species here, that can breed we'll bred those instead to keep them alive even if they pure species, it just isnt done.

Also, when you deal with animals, you have be really careful about humanizing them, and putting your feelings and emotions onto them, it can be dangerous, and it can lead to making mistakes in dealing with them. Animals do have some emotions, and they show sometimes, but most of the time its instinct. With all the experience I have had with breeding hamsters, especially with Syrians, if you disturbed them in any way, they culled or ignored their pups. Most of the time it wasnt even something I did, natural selection, experience of the hamster, it being spooked, all could have been reasons that it culled or ignored them. There were times when I know that there was something I did that caused the mother to cull or to abandoned them and that's when I felt really bad. In the hamster fancy, its generally accepted that Syrians should be left, and disturbed as little as possible. I have very rarely seen dwarfs cull their babies, I have seen them push them deliberately from the nest, and them die not long after.

Culling, for whatever reason is all about instinct, not a feeling. If a hamster culls, they dont feel sorry or have regrets, it just happens and they get on with it. This is where it si important not to put our own feelings onto them, not something we would do, but it is instinctive behaviour for a hamster. When you think of it, in the wild, hamsters if disturbed with have the room to move their young to another place, but they dont in captivity. In the wild if they are cornered, they will cull their babies, or abandon them. Instinct to survive. As they are in captivity, they dont have much option.


As far as they having feelings for loss of their pups. Most species of hamsters can produce large numbers to compensate for losses. They may have some form of immediate sense of loss, but from instinct they can ot dwell on that, they have to carry on and make sure the rest of the litter grows and is healthy.

Another thing as fora as handling newborn hamsters, and posting pictures of you doing isnt really a good idea. I have been on forums for quite a while, and have seen the effects it can on inexperienced persons, especially the younger hamster owners that have very little experience of keeping animals let alone breeding them and just gone into breeding just for the fun of it, to see them handling he babies and then having the mother cull/ignore them as there is a different smell she's not used to. I'm not saying that what your doing in handling them is wrong, you have experience, you know your hamsters and they know you. You know what you can and cant do with them. Inexperienced people dont. That's why we have forums to teach and show what is right or wrong. I was able to handle a lot of hamsters pups from an early age, I knew my animals too, but I wouldnt have dreamt of posting pictures, just in case. And its the 'just in case' that really worried me. It only take that once and a person could cause that to happen to their hamsters, and its unnecessary. Its not about having read that people have done it, its the experience you get of knowing a certain type of person posting will probably do it, and do it because they have seen you do it. Personally I couldn't do it, knowing that it could be somebody that read my post and saw it was ok, because 'I said it was ok, look a me holding these small pups'.

I am sorry if I have stepped on anybody's toes here, but I thought I needed to say something.

Hi Ziggy and wlecome to the forum.
Don't worry you haven't stood on anyone's toes the forum is for debate and sharing of knowledge and ideas so your comments are very welcome and I think you make some very good and responsible points.

Firstly, I would like to make clear that we did not intend to become hamsters breeders, it arose by a mstake in the sexing of our original dwarf pair Elly and Sunny. When we had our first litter we were very surprised and shocked and didn't now quite what to do.

We agree that ideally we should split this pair and avoid further litters, but we simply do not have the heart to do it, we have tried twice and they both became very agitated and distressed. I admit that we are probably being too soft and should probably have bitten the bullet and persevered and it is something that we need to give further thought to doing.

I guess what we hoped is that they wouldn't have too many more litters and we planned to just deal as best we could with what offspring they produce and we are keeping most of them ourselves and meticulously sexing them to avoid any further breeding.

Regarding posting the pictures I think that is a form of censorship that I cannot agree with, baby hamsters exist before they open their eyes and there is no point trying to cover it up. We make clear in several articles and where most of our pictures appear about the caution with which handlng them early must involve.
We also make it clear that it is a very different scenario with Syrians.

I think people are interested in the development of baby hamsters and that a daily picture diary of the changes is informative for those who are interested.

We also never handle them for longer than a minute or so and never just for fun or because we can. The parents feelings and reactions are always paramount in our handling.

Thanks for writing back to me. My difficulty here is two fold. One the fact that they are hybrids, and if either of the or both hamster Winter White or Cambells have health issues, the offspring will receive those illnesses. Plus the fact that they are hybrids, once they leave you, you cannot guarantee that people that are taking them from you will not breed from them. A long time ago, when these 'new colours' first came into this country, I had a couple of pairs and bred out to get them, and discovered they had really bad health problems once they reached adulthood, plus they had neurological problems as well. I was devastated. Not only that, every person that had these new colours found the same thing. Its bad enough that a Cambells can get diabetes, or the Winter Whites can get gloucoma or tumours, but to put all these diseases into one animal deliberately is causing them pain and suffering.

The other difficulty I have here, is that yes you are right they do exist before they have their eyes open, but treating this as a form or censorship instead of safety towards you hamsters seems to me not the right idea. I have taken pictures of babies but in the nest and when the mother is doing something else. I have lots of pictures doing it that way, and it reduces the stress on the mother doing it that way. As you say, you have on several articles talked abut the dangers of doing that, but you have nowhere on this thread posted about the dangers of handling and stressing the mother. Nor pointed in any direction for those less experienced those articles.

The fact that you find think you are being soft in my humble opinion tells me you arent really thinking about the animals, your thinking about yourselves and are not thinking about the possibility of suffering.

Keeping animals isnt about us, its about them, making sure that they are fed well, they are healthy and they dont suffer. That includes breeding, not for nice colours or nice babies, that's breeding to ensure the lines are kept pure and most of all, they kept healthy.

Please think about separating them, they might have anxiety for a day or so, but they will get over it. The other thing is you wont be bringing into this world hamsters that are Hybrids and with higher percentage of developing a health issue. That's thinking about the animals, not your happiness. Which is what this is all about.

Thank for reading.

Oh hi Ziggy and welcome to the forum!

Wow you have very strong opions.

Hi Bekah, thank you for the welcome.

I know what you mean about cross breeding, as one parent is not fully dwarf campbells. But we are not large scale breeders, well, not breeders at all. We do not plan to show any of the babies (or the dad) + neither are the people we give them to. So I don't really think that the hybrids are too much. They are very healthy, all 3 litters have been great with no problems showing at all. And Sunny (the dad) being the hybrid, he had had no problems either.  

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That's thinking about the animals, not your happiness

No need to even suggest this, as we know to be kind sometimes you have to be cruel. We will do whatever is best for the pair, whatever it is. Although I doubt splitting them up will be the case. I think the problems you had were by crossing very different hamsters, Sunny is half campbells dwarf and Elly is fully campbells dwarf, all the babies have been very healthy. I doubt Elly will have another litter anyhow, as she is getting nearer to 1 year and I have read they stop at around a year. Thank you for your concern anyhow. Debate is good.

Also you were saying about stress with the mother, we have pointed out in various places that we strongly advise inexpirianced people not to handle their hamsters young.


Welcome to the forum.

Your welcome Ziggy

Yep Laura thats righto

Ziggy, you say a lot so it is hard to know what to answer.

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they probably did meet in the wild, and probably bred too,

It is unlikely that they met in the wild because they were geographically separated. What we do with captive hamsters does not affect survival of the wild species. So hybrids are not endangering species survival. Breeding hybrids is not encouraged and I think it is for the best. Elly and Sunny are not an intentional breeding, nor are their babies part of a breeding program. Care has been taken to ensure that the offspring are not bred. I rather thought Elly was a hybrid as well since her face is different from my pure campbells females. It might just be regional differences since I live in canada.

There is a risk with dwarfies of transfering  "bad" genes from the one species to the other. They both have their problems. But cross breeding and hybridization can also have a positive effect  and create more vigorous offspring. I wouldn't do it in this case, but it is not always bad.

With reguards to posting pictures and such, I think information benifits the novice. We provide information. We do this carefully and we do tell people that we have experience. If experinced people limit themselves to only doing what novices can do, then how will novices learn.

About dwarfies and their "feelings", I have been studying them closely since the year 2000. They have a whole range of feelings. I am amazed at what I have observed. They grieve when they have a loss and then they move on. They don't have long memories. I have seen males pine to death when a mate has died. If they can get past the first few days they will be fine, but they feel the loss greatly at first.

Dwarfies are way more complex and wonderful than most people ever realize. I think it is important to study them closely and I think it is good to talk about our findings and show pictures.

About the "bad" genes we just need to work at weeding them out of the species. I have not had an actual diabetic hamster in years. I was very careful about which hamsters I bred. I think being open about these things will help others to work towards the same goal. If I had pictures of a diabetic, I would want to post them so others could see. Maybe I should post pictures of the various illnesses they get. How will novices learn if we do not teach them. I realize that some people will use their learning badly, but that should not stop us from teaching.

Quoted from catherine

It is unlikely that they met in the wild because they were geographically separated. What we do with captive hamsters does not affect survival of the wild species. So hybrids are not endangering species survival.

Hybrids are not endangering species survival in the wild but it is in the home.


I think this is a good point here. It doesn affect things in the wild but it does affect things in the pet industry. As it is, one person in America reckons there arent any pure lines of Winter Whites in the USA because of indiscriminate cross breeding. Its also getting to the stage in the UK that you can be sure that unless you get them form a reputable breeder, they are pure lines as well. That's the sad part. The fact that its being deliberately done, and there is just no guarantee the animals wont be bred from again, means the Pure lines are being wiped out. You keep saying that this breeding wasnt intentional, that might have been the case for the first litter, but the other two litters have been intentional as you refuse to separate the male from the female. Please you should think very carefully about keeping these two hamsters together and even more carefully about rehoming them. When it happened to me, I kept every single hamster till they all does, because I didnt want to be responsible for these hamsters to affect anymore pure lines.

As as having problems breeding them years ago, the situation was not much different to your, the only difference being, we had just received the animals into the country, and there werent that many generations of them. Now 5 or 6 generations later, the cross breeding and indiscriminate breeding could have caused even more health issues. But the thing that worries me is that you are breeding them, and it could be leading to the wipeout of all pure lines, and you dont seem to be bothered about that.

As far as the pictures are concerned, yes they do benefit the novice, but there are ways of taking pictures that can benefit the novice without putting the babies in harms way. It doesnt mater how you look at it. There are children reading this with their own hamsters and possible babies, that will just read over your warnings and thing, if they can do it, I can and then you get a upset youngster saying they have lost all their babies, why. It just isnt worth it.

Quoted from Ziggy

But the thing that worries me is that you are breeding them, and it could be leading to the wipeout of all pure lines, and you dont seem to be bothered about that.

Personally I think that is a bit harsh and very judgmental, we are accidental and therefore novice breeders who are trying to learn and do the best we can for the animals that we have.
What did you expect us to say, "oh, yes you are absolutely right, we are absolutely wrong and we will do exactly as you say ASAP".

Well it is more complex than that and as I have said we are thinking about separating the parents. The advice you gave is 2 days old and we have had these animals for over 6 months so we need to get things in perspective here.
Also not every one is a pedigree hamster afficionado and thinks a hybrid is less of a being for not ticking every box on a show judges perfect animal chart. Obviously if it increases disease then that  is a different matter.

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and then you get a upset youngster saying they have lost all their babies, why. It just isnt worth it.

That is applying excessive emotional leverage to your argument in my view, by bringing in an imaginary child in an imaginary scenario and laying the blame on us for the imagery of a fictionally distressed child.

We have kept most of our offspring, and re-homed only a few. Those we have re-homed have been in definite same sex groups and we have given strong advice not to breed from them and given them only to people that we know and continue to see regularly. We can therefor re-enforce this advice if the situation changed.

One other issue of stating that we have been thinking about ourselves rather than the animals in being too "soft". I disagree strongly with this too. We had the sweetest lamb ever, Jemima, to which we were very attached, but she was unwell with joint ill and was suffering too much, so we had her put to sleep. This was one of the most painful things that we have gone through as a family and we are still grieving that poor lamb now. So when we are SURE that an action is in an animal's best interest we will take that action, however, painful that may be. Until we are sure we will try to find out more and consider all options.

We are taking into consideration your advice, but please give us time to consider the situation fully before making judgements and we will post here whatever action we decide to take.

I am sorry if this seems harsh, or overpowering, but I've been with the hamster fancy for years, and I've seen the problems of 'accidental litters' and what they can cause. It doesnt just end with the person that breeds them it carries on.

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Also not every one is a pedigree hamster afficionado and thinks a hybrid is less of a being for not ticking every box on a show judges perfect animal chart. Obviously if it increases disease then that  is a different matter.

You misunderstand me here, its not about the the perfectness of the hamsters at the table its about keeping a line of pure Campbells and a line of pure Winter Whites. That's the biggest worry. Before long, and believe me, it will be extremely hard to find a a true WW or Cambells, which is what we are concerned about.

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and then you get a upset youngster saying they have lost all their babies, why. It just isnt worth it.

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That is applying excessive emotional leverage to your argument in my view, by bringing in an imaginary child in an imaginary scenario and laying the blame on us for the imagery of a fictionally distressed child.

You see, unfortunately, I have seen on way too many forums, children handling their newborn babies, and then finding they have been killed or abandoned, and this is no imaginary child, this is happening. I am not judging you for knowing your own hamsters and knowing what you can and cant do for them, all I'm trying to do is show you the possibility of what does happen else where when pictures like yours have been posted to forums.

Ziggy, I think we need to put this in perspective. We are talking about breeding hamsters. We are not talking about Global Warming or world wide deforestation. Don't get me wrong, I take my dwarfies very seriously. I have been studying them since the year 2000. I have over 80 hamsters at any given time. They are all Campbells. I think a few accidental hybrid litters that are being responsibly cared for does not threaten the species as we know it.
               Lighten up

If the Hybrids are not strong and have major health problems then they will die out. If they are stronger then they will survive. That is the judgement of nature. That is ultimately how natural selection works. If it is strong it survives. If it is weak it doesn't.

The baby hamsters that are dying because children are handling then, those babies were doomed from the very start. If a small child is handling the parents and the babies as they please and there is not careful adult supervision, the babies won't survive anyhow. Nothing we are doing on the Forum is encouraging that child to breed or handle their hamsters like that. We are encouraging people to be responsible and we are trying to teach people how to do things for the bennefit of the hamsters. Showing careful pictures of what the babies look like and how they develop can really help a new breeder. Should a small child even use the internet without some adult supervision anyhow.

We are not causing baby hamsters to die. We are actually helping people with good advice. I think you are being very harsh and judgemental. I also question how much you really know about dwarfies. (Separating bonded pairs can result in the death of the adults. They will pine to death in the absence of a mate.) For you to jump in out of nowhere and start dictating how other people should handle their hamsters is not appropriate. If you have opinions that you want to share that is fine. We have some lively discussions. You are not sharing with us. You are dictating and expecting us to actually comply. I have more experince than you and I think you are wrong in many things that you have said.

I'll just say this, I have experience, a lot more than you would like to believe. I bred four different species of hamsters. I have shown my hamsters and had best in show for three of the species.

I'm sorry that you think I'm being heavy handed I'm not. Having had the experience I have had, and it came from people that had some of the very first hamsters in the UK as they first came into the pet trade. Those that have been officers of the NHC and BHA.

It isnt a case of lightening up. Its a case of trying to do what's best for diminishing pure bred Cambells and Winter Whites. By condoning the breeding of Hybrids on your website you ar are giving people permission to do the same thing, which I find really sad because you are telling people its ok to to this even though the pure lines might soon be disappearing.

I'm sorry, but if I didnt think it was necessary to step in I wouldnt have.  

Ziggy we keep pets, not show animals and in all of the groups of animals that we have we don't know the ins and of the NHC, the BHA or there equivalents for dogs, rabbits, guinea pigs, sheep or  chickens. Although, my wife did recently join the British Kune Kune Pig Society (although our pigs are crosses from a rescue centre), so that we know better how to care for them.

Most people who keep any pet don't join the society for that pet or have  a major interest in purity of breed and maintenance of lines, so why should it be any different for hamsters? I'm sure there is a need for people who do and you clearly are one of those people, but we, and the majority of pet keepers, are not.

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By condoning the breeding of Hybrids on your website you ar are giving people permission to do the same thing, which I find really sad because you are telling people its ok to to this even though the pure lines might soon be disappearing.

I would be grateful if you would show me the part of our website where we condone the breeding of hybrids? In fact, there is an active thread at the moment where one of our younger members was enquiring about pairing a female with a male and everyone who replied advised her very strongly against this.

I would also like to see the factual evidence for the hybrids that Sunny probably is and Elly may be being less healthy than the pure breed wild type, because this is the main thing that would influence us, not the purist agenda of any hamster society officers.

I would just like to make it clear. We so far have had 22 hamster pups (13 of whom we still have as valued pets) that are not going to have babies of their own and unlikely to put in danger the whole campbell's race

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I find really sad

It seems to me that you think we are basically putting in clear print "hey everyone, breed hybrids to ruin the pure breed hamsters!", which I have no idea where you get this from. You really need to look at the other sides.
We care more for the pets behind rosettes + "best-in-show" trophies than how good they are for showing. You say that we do not care about their well-being - whereas it seems to me that you care more about their showing than how well the actual hamster is. Do remember 22 babies arn't going to change the hamster race, non of them will be breeding again as we keep them until an age where their gender is 100% clear.

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even though the pure lines might soon be disappearing.

I think that is a little bit of an exaggeration.
Our pigs are kune kunes x potbellies - does that mean we should have left them at the SSPCA shelter just because of their breed? (for that matter so are our chickens, sheep and probably guinea pigs) No, of course it doesn't. Same for our hamsters. I think now it is not a case of lightening up, its more a case of listening to reality. We do not need someone to tell us how to keep our pets. Our website is not urging people to get breeding hamsters, let alone go on a mission to make all the pure breeds fade away.

Isn't this day 10? Where are the day 9 pic to???

Ok What the heck is a hybrid????

And wo, there has been ALOT of conversatoin while I was gone. I'm surprised. This is like a trial here. Everyone is debating, and what sees like to me a little fighting. This thread seems to be tensing up alot. Maybe even some frustration and stress. wow everyone has alot on their mind. I think everyone should go to a yoga class right now. Release the stress, angry-ness, feel more calm and secure. Reading all this is starting to give me a headache. This can be interesting, no this IS interesting. Like if I typed out all my thoughts, and what everyone thought, this post would go one forever. LIke really, everyone needs to calm down. Maybe they will separate Elly and Sunny, it's their decision to or not to. Yall know they didn't do this on purpose. But Elly and Sunny are in love. Maybe it does lead to shotened life spans, but atlest Elly and Sunny are happy. Have you ever thought that separating might hurt them? They little love birds (or hamsters in this case) its like you and your brother/sister/mom/dad/wife/husband being torn apart. It's not cool. As said before, Elly is getting older and will stop having babies soon. Then they live as a happy couple. I'm sure John will find good homes for the babies, as they probably won't keep all of them. I know they just don't throw them out in the street and hope to survive on their own. Everyone needs to chill out ok? PLease

Yes we definetly will be sure to find good home - if we can't then we will keep and ones that we cannot find a good home for.
A hybrid is a cross between two types/breeds. Elly is fully campbells dwarf russian (or so we know) + Sunny is part WW and part campbells dwarf.